Friday, January 27, 2017

Hijiri, Candles, Freedom: Maniacs' Retcon Woes (and the Atlus "Enhanced" Edition Formula)


For many years it seemed almost unthinkable to criticize the seminal and influential Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne in any way. Besides, any such criticisms could be easily excused. Re-rolling fusion skills? It just makes it all that more intense and satisfying to get exactly what you want. Random negotiation? It's just, uh, more fun that way, yeah! No story? Okay, that one is seriously illegitimate. Point is, an epoch-making, 15-year-old game like Nocturne will survive having its flaws exposed since it has a lot more to offer than RNG insanity.

The same goes for the vaunted Maniacs additions. Flat out, Maniacs made Nocturne a more fun game to play. Most of us across the Pacific or further will never know the difference, but I can't imagine a Nocturne with more ambushes and instant death and less Matador and Daisoujou becoming a cult hit. Its plot and backstory additions, though? It's open season.

I should state up front that this is article consists mostly of old material. It is the original survey of the writing inconsistencies of Hijiri's character (which the post permalink will continue to reflect) appended with two other older posts that dealt with iffy Maniacs creative decisions, like the guiding figures of the Freedom ending (a close reading of which contradicts Maniacs retcons of Aradia) and the kabbalistic theming attached to the Fiends' candelabra. Also, a new, somewhat meaty conclusion about the quality of the Atlus enhanced editions (re-releases, ports, whatever you want to call them) we'll continue receiving until the heat death of the universe.

And as of this update (December 2019), it's an extremely boring time to be a Shin Megami Tensei fan, so why not spend a quick 30 minutes reuniting with the writing tendencies of the team that will (eventually) bring us Shin Megami Tensei V? Hey, at least you know those improved gameplay mechanics are going to be pretty good...  

1. Jyoji Hijiri: Tragic Asshole (Jan. 27, 2017) [Updated Jun. 6, 2022]



What follows is a response written to answer this ask on Tumblr wondering what I meant by a previous statement, that Hijiri's expanded backstory in the Maniacs version of Nocturne conflicts with other aspects of the game's narrative.

My response got so long that I thought it best to post here rather than Tumblr, for better legibility. But click beyond and you’ll find a complete summary of Hijiri’s cutscenes, the Lady in Black’s extra backstory for him, and my comments! I never thought I’d get vibes of SMT4/A-level shenanigans from Nocturne, but some of the story additions from Maniacs are suspect...and I think I know exactly why. First, here’s a complete (for our purposes) game script: http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps2/582958-shin-megami-tensei-nocturne/faqs/54926

And here is a summary of the scenes in which Hijiri appears and his actions within them. These should reflect everything that happens in the original, pre-Maniacs script (except once, where noted):
  • Prologue, Yoyogi Park: Introduction to him as journalist; namedrops things like the Gaea cult, Scripture of Miroku, and the strange things happening at the hospital. Gives you issue of Ayakashi Monthly.
  • Immediately after Conception, inside first Terminal room: Confirmation of Conception and that Hikawa used the Amala drums. As he’s too apprehensive about leaving the safety of the Terminal room, he asks you to be his informant on what’s happening in the Vortex World.
  • After meeting Chiaki in Shibuya: An introduction to the warp feature of Terminals, the Terminals as “devices,” and the existence of the Amala Network. Persuades you to warp to Ginza.
  • Amala Network 1: Helps you cross the Network into Ginza by manipulating the Terminal. (Possible edit to script to account for the first Labyrinth of Amala event when Hijiri says he “lost track of you for a while?” I honestly have no way of verifying this.) When you reach Ginza, he says he wants to track down Hikawa.
  • At Assembly of Nihilo, after Mantra attack: Tells you about the Assembly’s purpose, collecting Magatsuhi, and where to find Hikawa. Seems to be gleaning information directly from the Amala Network.
  • After Kabuki-cho, in Ginza: Now he’s definitely getting information from the Amala Network (he says “I heard...” twice. suspicious for a guy who never leaves the room), as he knows not only about Hikawa’s Nightmare System but also about the Manikins rebuilding Asakusa and tells you to go there to get to a Terminal outside the reach of the Nihilo.
  • At Asakusa: Manages to reach the Terminal “after all” and is there when you arrive. What a dope. Tells you that the Manikins are made from local black mud and that he’s spying on Hikawa’s activities, using the Terminal and Amala Network like one would use a computer and the internet, true to his journalistic integrity.
  • After meeting Sakahagi, Asakusa: Tells you about the Obelisk, the Nightmare System inside of it, and the “Maiden” said to be operating it. Commands you to go there and destroy the Nightmare System and restore the flow of Magatsuhi to normal. 
  • After Obelisk, Asakusa: Jubilant at your success. Gives you an infodump about how Reasons work and the use of Magatsuhi. Says he met Isamu inside the Amala Network and warps you to him.
  • Amala Network 2: Says he will go after Isamu within the Amala Network.
  • After events with Hikawa and Futomimi, Asakusa: Scuttlebutt about Mantra and Futomimi.
  • After Yoyogi Park, Asakusa: Says he can’t find Isamu, hints that something (Chiaki) is happening in Ikebukuro.
  • After Chiaki’s transformation event, Asakusa: Goes cuckoo. Says the Terminal gives him omniscience and shows you other major events happening currently in the Vortex. Intends on keeping the power of the Amala’s information to himself and says he is the only one worthy of a Reason and creating a new world. Senses Isamu’s presence, who sucks Hijiri into the Network.
  • At Amala Temple: Isamu reveals the truth about Hijiri, that he was manipulating you and intended on sacrificing you to access all the Temple’s Magatsuhi. Hijiri accepts his fate and is sacrificed by Isamu.

And now for the Lady in Black’s “expanded universe” story about Hijiri:

Let me conclude by telling you about a human who has crossed your path...one who is drifting, being kept alive by fate. It is my master's wish that you listen before deciding upon a path to take.

The man I am referring to was known as Hijiri in your previous world. He died, but as fate would have it, he carried on in the Vortex World. Think back to when you first met him, to when the Conception occurred. Yes, he did lose his life like all the others. As he was heading to the  hospital, where you already were, the Conception began...and his life ended. Did it not seem odd to you, that he was in the Vortex World unaffected, unchanged?

It was all because of the mortal sin which he committed... He was a being toyed with by fate, condemned to carry the burden of atonement forever. His punishment was to see with his own eyes all that happens in the world, to record the balance of events through all the ages. A task as endless as scooping water out of the sea with a cup... He was condemned to wander the infinite span of time.

Man can change the course of his next life, by his karma... But, that privilege was taken away from Hijiri. Though his body may perish, his soul will remain unsaved: he must continue on with his task. He lives a cursed eternal life, just like a demon.

'Watch, and record the history of the world... Witness the entirety of the endless war between order and chaos... That is your punishment for your unforgivable sin...' Do you understand now? By the will of Amala, he was given a life of torment...and emerged in the Vortex World, without realizing that he had died.

Soon after, your paths crossed again... That is probably because you have the potential to affect the course of the new world. So by accompanying you, he has unknowingly been fulfilling his destiny.

Tragically, he has no memory of his sin, his punishment, or even his death. He believes that he survived the Conception, and has acted accordingly. As for the result of his efforts... you already know the outcome. In the body of a Manikin, Hijiri challenged those vying for creation...and he lost his body once again.

He is now on a journey to a new land of suffering, but his will can never be freed, and his sin never redeemed...

Okay. There’s a LOT of stupid stuff here. But I’ll begin by mentioning that vanilla Nocturne credits Shogo Isogai and Nakaji Kimura as its scenario writers, while the Maniacs version credits for its additions Shogo Isogai, Shigeo Komori, and none other than Kazuyuki Yamai. Only Yamai’s name is important here. Let’s move on. 

Left: Nocturne's original writers and planners / right: the Maniacs version's writers (Isogai is also credited later as planner)

I would guess that Hijiri's background was chosen for expansion because he's probably the least fleshed-out among the other human characters. But that's just the thing--he's a supporting character. He exists to give you information, point you in the right direction, and act as a rival for Isamu, raising the stakes with his death. Though, since the knowledge of the Amala Network turns him into a grade-A megalomaniac, you don't exactly lament his demise; Hijiri is, again, just a Magatsuhi sponge for Isamu. He exists only to support you (and Isamu).

The first obvious contrast between Main Scenario Hijiri and Backstory Hijiri is that the backstory doesn’t expound at all on his in-game character and has zero bearing on the main plot. In other words, it is the epitome of “contrived” as it adds NOTHING of value to the narrative or his character. Let’s be honest, Hijiri is a total dickweed, and the backstory attempts to paint him as a sympathetic, “tragic” character. That’s completely silly when he is clearly shown to be a deceptive schemer! He is no more or less crazy than anyone else who made it to the Vortex World, and, like the others, is shown to change because of his experiences there, not some stupid event in the past he has no control over. Hijiri’s backstory as a journalist is much more meaningful to the plot than some invented eternal punishment. 

"Yeah, he tells me all about
the plot that's definitely not there!"
The backstory also attempts to primp his entry into the Vortex World. According to the Lady in Black, Hijiri actually died with all the other humans because he didn't make it into the hospital before the Conception. She then asks a moronic question: "Did it not seem odd to you, that he was in the Vortex World unaffected, unchanged?" No...because he doesn't seem any different compared to other characters when you first meet them, like Chiaki or Hikawa. He undergoes a personality change just like the others, too. He's also a coward who hides in the Terminal rooms because of the demons stalking outside. Whoever wrote this was really reaching here.

It’s worth noting that Nocturne deliberately threw a lot of traditions under the bus, namely Law and Chaos, as Okada and Kaneko knew they were creative dead ends. Some Reasons have shades of those philosophies, with a twist. For example, Chiaki’s Yosuga is ostensibly Chaotic, yet Lawful angels are the demons that side with her. The point is that the Vortex World doesn’t operate by those exact principles! Something is "off." I understand though that the intentionally topsy-turvy nature of Nocturne isn't particularly easy to grasp for players on our side of the Pacific, because it was our first game in the series and those traditions it was abandoning hadn't yet been established here.

So, of course, when Nocturne didn't live up to sales expectations (so the stories go), the Maniacs content added in LAW and CHAOS by the bucketload. Hence, the Lady in Black says of Hijiri's fate: "'Watch, and record the history of the world... Witness the entirety of the endless war between order and chaos... That is your punishment for your unforgivable sin...'" So Hijiri was sent to the Vortex World to record another Law/Chaos war...even though neither have any bearing on what happens there. What does Law affect when the angels have become the representatives of Darwinism? Additionally, Hijiri also isn’t privy to the actual Law/Chaos conflict going on with Lucifer’s scheme in the Labyrinth.

But wait! There's more nonsense with Hijiri's role as a witness! So his punishment is to record what happens for eternity, right? But just a few sentences after the Lady in Black says that, she notes: "Tragically, he has no memory of his sin, his punishment, or even his death." In other words, Hijiri has no idea what he's doing. He cannot recall his purpose. You might even say that this completely undermines this entire backstory, but it (surprisingly) doesn't explain what happens to Hijiri's soul after death--does he experience a recap of events like you'd see at the beginning of a TV show, which he then feverishly scrawls on parchment before being reincarnated again? Either way, another problem with this idea is that Hijiri dies before he can witness the resolution of the Vortex World's conflicts! It's like he was sent off to sea before the airing of the season finale, adrift in a vessel with no satellite signal, let alone a VCR or TiVo (hey, this is 2003). 
 
The face of integrity and impartiality
Moreover, the Lady in Black says Hijiri's actual form is that of a Manikin. This contradicts multiple things Hijiri says himself. He says of the Manikins' genesis, "Oh yeah, I found out something interesting about Asakusa. This is where the Manikins are created. They're made from the black mud that's scooped up from a river around here." However, Hijiri says of his Conception experience that "all of a sudden, I was blinded by a bright light and the next thing I knew, I was here in this room. I took a quick look around, and it looks like I'm in a hospital...Since you're here too, does that mean this is Shinjuku Medical Center?"

First, there are no other Manikins in the game that don't know they are Manikins. It would also be odd that Hijiri ended up in the hospital after being created in Asakusa, though the way things in the Vortex World are established it makes it seem that certain demon factions and the Manikins themselves existed for far longer than the few hours it takes you to be introduced to them. Nonetheless, Hijiri experiences the Conception in an instant and winds up in the hospital Terminal room. There is precedent for bodily transport, as you experience the Conception with Ms. Takao on the roof and wake up in the basement after being transformed; however, Lucifer may have moved you to the basement for symbolic "rebirth" purposes. (Come on, you know he would do something like that.) Overall, this bit of the extra scenario just seems unlikely for logistical reasons. The simpler explanation is that Hijiri, someone aware of the occult happenings at the hospital, followed your lead to investigate and got transported to the Terminal room when the Conception occurred, so he's still unsettled when he arrives. I mean, teleportation is associated with him, after all!

One last thing that would be remiss to go unmentioned. Though I’m anti-Hijiri-is-Aleph, I have to admit that during my Nocturne playthrough, the Lady in Black’s story definitely seemed to imply such a connection. I mean, who else could it be? Why mention a “mortal sin” without explaining what it is? And considering how the Maniacs content is eager to reference past games and offer the fanservice and traditions the original release intentionally denied, I honestly can’t dismiss it as a possibility. But does YHVH actually curse Aleph for defeating him? Check out his relevant dialogue from SMT2 for each route, expertly translated by Dijeh:

LAW:

Pre-battle, after Satan's betrayal: Judge Satan! Thou sayest thou shalt judge me, thou created being! If that be so, ye shalt be stricken by my lightning and fall in Hell! Burn in the eternal flames of Hell! Ye demons! Ye humans who walk by the side of demons!

Post-battle: Being judged by my own creation means that ye have already let go of my hand. Think ye that ye shall be able to find your way without the help of my unseen hand? Remember well. Humans can live with nothing to trust or rely on. But humans are not strong. Every time humans shall seek my help, the Great Will of the Universe shalt bring me forth countless times...

NEUTRAL:

Pre-battle: Praise my name! There is no one to rival my glory. Praise my name! Ye have finally showed to me. Accursed child of man, Aleph! Thou art a wicked human, a created being that cannot go against my law. Hiroko! Thou hast offered thy body to create an accursed human. Not only have ye both violated my laws, ye have even come to stand before me. The many sins ye have committed are worth certain death. Still, after that irredeemable death, after the continuous persecutions in Hell, your reincarnations shall be stricken by calamities and divine retribution until the very last! 

Post-battle: Ye accursed humans! Ye have finally committed the ultimate sin. Now there is nothing left for ye who have destroyed me, the Creator, the father of all, nothing to trust, nothing to rely on. Ye have even killed the Demon King Lucifer. What shall ye do by yourselves? Remember well. Humans can live with nothing to trust or rely on. But humans are not strong. Every time humans shall seek my help, the Great Will of the Universe shalt bring me forth countless times...

CHAOS:

Pre-battle: Humans, demons...in the end, they are all my creations. Your blades cannot even scratch me. If that be so, ye shall be stricken by my lightning and fall in Hell! Burn in the eternal flames of Hell! Ye demons! Ye humans who walk by the side of demons!

Post-battle: It is your victory. The Creator defeated by his own creations shall now vanish. I cannot bear to see the world that used to move under my law descend into chaos. Who shall be the leader of the new but chaotic world? Lucifer? Shall Aleph and Hiroko be worshipped as saviors? Remember well. Humans can live with nothing to trust or rely on. But humans are not strong. Every time humans shall seek my help, the Great Will of the Universe shalt bring me forth countless times... 

The most tantalizing of YHVH's lines are those before the Neutral final battle. This is probably the entire basis for the Hijiri = Aleph hypothesis. However, this appears to be an empty threat unless YHVH actually kills Aleph which, due to our bias as players, we assume doesn't happen. On the other paths, he threatens Aleph and company to eternal torture in Hell...yet we never hear any crazy theories about those ramifications. The common threat all three paths share is that, after defeat, YHVH says the Great Will (through human desire) will revive him. This is probably the actual "punishment": Humans need to tread carefully and depend on each other rather than the supernatural, as the specter of Law/Neutral/Chaos looms ever large.

But refuting the Hijiri-Aleph connection is that Japanese commentary on the subject, as I’ve researched, tends to be light and what few mentions exist could be influenced by the English fanbase; I have a Japanese Nocturne: Maniacs fanbook that, as far as I can tell, makes no overt mention of the connection even though the journalist Hijiri is used as a framing device to introduce the content of each chapter. There’s also the fact that SMT4, a game even more eager than Nocturne’s bonus content to reference the past, offers no clear Aleph analogue/infinite water scooper. There was even a perfect opportunity in SMT4A’s Heroes DLC for the Demi-fiend to say to Aleph that he “seems familiar,” but that didn’t happen. And speaking of that DLC, Aleph mentions that he was killed by the Megiddo Ark, which only fires on Law--meaning they incorporated the Aleph that would be damned to eternal punishment in Hell rather than reincarnated torture. Clearly this connection has never been important to Atlus. Hijiri's past self could just as well describe an original character as much as Aleph.

Just a dude and his oversized
Buddhist prayer wheel
Speaking of Hijiri's "mortal sin," if killing YHVH is truly what that is describing, then Lucifer and the Lady in Black are trying to recruit the Demi-fiend to do the very same thing, even if the initial goal is to stop the cycle of creation. Wouldn't the Demi-fiend be consigned to the same fate, then? The Lady in Black doesn't think so, as she says in the concluding lines of her Hijiri dialogue, "Do you want your life to be predestined as well, or would you rather choose your own actions? If you do not wish to be ruled by destiny... If you would prefer to walk with demons on a new, untrodden path, then please come visit my master. You can open the door ahead with the candelabrum I gave you... Will you come meet my master?" She is implying that the Demi-fiend's path as a True Demon will not come at a cost like Hijiri and that this new path will be unique to him. Of course, this hinges on Lucifer being a sympathetic, trustworthy character. LUCIFER. I'll pull a Shin Megami Tensei and let you interpret that yourself. But the answer could very well be that the "mortal sin" was never killing YHVH in the first place. Maybe you were meant to come to your own conclusion? Hmm.

Anyway, this is all why I think the Lady in Black’s commentary about Hijiri is just backstory for backstory’s sake! It’s supposed to sound cool--and that’s it. No thought given to what else it impacts. You could substitute Hijiri for Futomimi or Sakahagi and it would affect nothing. Sloppy writing at the conceptual level! What else is there to say?

This sloppiness is also why Hijiri’s extra origin story reminds me of SMT4, because it seems every bit as contrived and overwrought as that game’s worst bits. And honestly, it’s the only one of the Lady in Black’s dialogues that’s even particularly egregious, but it all has to do with how little it has to do with the actual narrative. And given that Yamai is the only one of the Maniacs writers to also have a hand in SMT4, I’m seeing a connection. It’s sad to say, but I think Yamai, the guy in charge, might be the weak link in the Maniacs Team chain.
 
UPDATE: Even before publishing this initial version in 2017 there was something about the Hijiri-Aleph theory worming through my brain that I couldn't quite place and it took until compiling last year's Fan Myths articles to we know: we know exactly where the theory came from. 

Turns out that it originated from the author of Nocturne's most monumental FAQ from back in the day, Ian Kelley. Here's what he wrote in his FAQ
 
It's never said what Hijiri's crime exactly was, but I strongly suspect that he is a reincarnation of Aleph, the hero of Shin Megami Tensei II. Reason being, the description of the torture that he's going through sounds EXACTLY like what YHVH (ie, God) threatens Aleph with in the Neutral Path in SMTII. A short synopsis for those that haven't played SMTII and don't mind being spoiled--at the end of the Neutral path in SMTII, Aleph thwarts YHVH's plan to wipe out all life on Earth and kills Satan, his instrument of destruction. YHVH is royally pissed at this and summons Aleph directly up to him, where he says that he will kill him, torture him in Hell, reincarnate him and torture him and his descendants in life, then torture his soul in Hell some more, reincarnate him again for more living torture, etc. This is a pretty good parallel to what's happening to Hijiri. Of course, in SMTII, Aleph normally goes on to kill YHVH (who's the last boss) but in his death-speech YHVH accuses Aleph of committing the "ultimate sin" (as per Hijiri's "ultimate sin") and claims that the universe will bring him back to life so long as people keep believing in him. One can only assume that if Hijiri really is an incarnation of Aleph, that YHVH either came back to life and is getting revenge on Aleph, or that he killed Aleph in the final battle of SMTII in the official" SMT canon. And of course, all the stuff that went on in Aleph's world would have to be in a different Vortex than the one in SMTIII. Keep in mind, there's a high probability that I'm dead wrong on this. :P 

Bolded emphases my own. This bit was written no later than August 2004, the last time Kelley's FAQ was updated, and at the time just a fun thing to think about, not gospel to take as fact. This means it predates even the English release of Nocturne the following October. It can't be overstated how good Kelley's FAQ actually was, in these days before 99.99% of the people interested in the series had even heard of it (or were born yet). In the demons index, he even got Gurulu's name correct! In 2003/4! Kelley also contributed to the English Nocturne guide by DoubleJump books, though sadly not its localization. 

But seeing as Kelley didn't seem to take the Hijiri/Aleph theory all that seriously to begin with, he had the following to say about it on the SomethingAwful forums nearly a decade later in 2013, as the series had ballooned in popularity: 


Kelley is "Masakado" here, just as he was in his credited email in the FAQ. Amongst other things, he says of the theory, I was never really serious about it in the first place and never expected people to latch onto it but welp.” Between how poorly Nocturne retcons the extra backstory of Hijiri and this provable provenance of the theory itself, it's quite clear that "Hijiri is Aleph" was never intended by anyone at Atlus. And let's say even if it was--based on what we have, it's not something particularly rewarding or worth your precious time, anyway!



2. Skeletons and Their Not-Menorahs (Aug. 20, 2017)



A long time ago I was asked by @nagabenang about Nocturne’s use of Kabbalistic elements, mainly the names representing the candelabra/menorahs. I was interested as well, so I looked up how the names corresponded but unfortunately had to shelve the idea of diving any deeper… until now.

Here’s how the candelabra and their Fiends match up to their respective sephirot on the Tree of Life, as seen above:

  • Demi-fiend: Sovereignty (王国のメノラー); Malkuth
  • Matador: Foundation (基礎のメノラー); Yesod
  • Daisoujou: Eternity (永遠のメノラー); Netzach
  • Hell Biker: Dignity (威厳のメノラー[栄光]); Hod
  • White Rider: Compassion (慈悲のメノラー); Chesed
  • Red Rider: Insight (理解のメノラー ); Binah
  • Black Rider: Wisdom (知恵のメノラー); Chokhmah
  • Dante: Knowledge (知識のメノラー); Daath
  • Pale Rider: Majesty (王冠のメノラー); Kether
  • Mother Harlot: Beauty (美のメノラー); Tiferet
  • Trumpeter: Godliness (神威のメノラー[神々しい力]); Gevurah

The assumption you might make (I know I always did) with the incorporation of sephirot symbolism is that Nocturne is making a statement about the Demi-fiend’s journey or overall spiritual development as a result of Lucifer’s candelabra game. With the Candelabrum of Sovereignty given to him by Lucifer, representing Malkuth, the lowest sephira and the one farthest away from Kether, the “crown” and highest emanation, you infer that the Demi-fiend is at the bottom of the pecking order but expected to move along the “board,” so to speak, in a way that reflects internal development as the physical struggle illustrates external development.

But to save myself some writing and you some reading: this doesn’t actually work, sadly. It seems to be on the right track up until White Rider at Chesed, but the idea of some secret, ordered kabbalistic subtext falls apart at Pale Rider’s placement via his candelabrum. It just doesn’t make sense for him to be at the highest level of the Tree when he isn’t the last one you fight; Trumpeter should have been the Majesty/Kether rep instead.

I also included and analyzed two other “journeys,” also included in the photoset, that show the orders in which you can collect the candelabra (based on earliest possible opportunity) and the placement of the candelabra on each of the five pedestals in the Labyrinth of Amala. The collection order shows just how weird the intended fight order is while the placement order reveals that there is no adherence to the 22 paths of the Tree of Life or even a linear advancement on the Tree’s “rows.”

All told, this was a neat concept but inconsistently executed. I am by no means a Kabbalah expert, as there’s a density and intensity to the subject of which I can’t match from my mere casual interest, but I do know that you wouldn’t reach the goal (Kether) and then take a sharp turn around to a lower level. A little more careful placement and consideration and this could have been as resonant as as some of the themes found in the core game.  

3. Baby Lucifer, Freedom, and How It's Easy to Forget Dialogue from 30 Hours Ago in RPGs (Jan. 28, 2019)




Early in 2019, I was asked about the soundness of Nocturne’s Maniacs additions and my reply prompted multiple responses. Those responses in turn prompted me to deep dive into certain aspects of Nocturne’s narrative, resulting in this mini-analysis.

To start, in the vein of the Hijiri character breakdown I wanted to run through Nocturne’s script and summarize the appearances of the Old Woman and Child (or any aspect of Lucifer) in the original, non-Maniacs version:

1. Vision in the hospital, pre-Conception. A mere introduction to both.

2. Immediately post-Conception. Child feeds you the magatama. Old Woman says the “little master” watches you.

3. After exiting the hospital. Introduction to Kagutsuchi, the Vortex World environment, and the idea of creation.

4. After Aradia appears in the Obelisk. The Old Woman says Aradia is trouble. That’s honestly kind of a weird line, we’ll come back to it. But it’s worth copying most of her subsequent dialogue verbatim:
The time of creation for this  Vortex World is near. War will erupt amongst those who spread their Reason  in hopes of shaping the new world. As a demon, you are forbidden to conceive your own Reason... Which Reason will you side with? Which will you oppose?   Will the Reason you choose persevere, or fail? Your suffering is my little master's delight. Struggle as hard as you can; You are free to follow  whichever Reason you like. My only wish is that you do not disappoint my  little master with a dull ending...

5. Activating the way to the Tower of Kagutsuchi at Amala Temple. The Old Woman explains what the tower is and that it’s creation time. However, she also shills for the True Demon Ending, which feels like it’s appended to the original expository dialogue. I don’t feel like finding and comparing the Japanese vanilla version dialogue now, so let’s just ignore this appearance for the time being. With a bit of extra time, I looked into it and her dialogue is indeed different. I've screencapped the dialogue and provided videos below: 





Diverging after the ゾロゾロ (streaming) line, it's most obvious that Maniacs adds significantly more dialogue to the scene, while the original version has three extra text boxes that weren't ported over. If someone is willing to provide a translation of those three additionals, I'd appreciate it! Just from the little I can understand it does look like there is a little bit of overlap with the Maniacs dialogue that doesn't specifically mention the new content. Soren was kind enough to provide a rough summary for these three boxes: "She says that you've done well up to this point, cautions that the final act begins now, and wonders what the end will be like for you." 

6. After the regular Demon ending. Noteworthy that this is the ONLY time the Child speaks directly outside of the TDE. He says:
A demon born in exchange for the world... There's no other quite like you. Kagutsuchi may have cursed you, but I give you my blessing. Light no longer shines upon you. But, you can do without it, can't you? Darkness is the source of your power now... I'm afraid I have to go now. I won't forget you, though. We'll definitely meet again... You should get going, too. Chaos will reign, as you desired, since no new world was forged. Indeed, it shall be the millennial kingdom of demons...

7. In the Neutral Human / Freedom ending. An unspecified but absolutely Lucifer voice says: “You have chosen to follow your will and tread the path of thorns... like myself. In time, your true adversary will appear before you.  Until that  day, stay strong...”

Now, to the asks! 


Note that the rest of this section is basically just a rambling answer to all three even beyond their initial questions as there was a lot more to investigate under the hood. 

For #1, I honestly feel like it’s the opposite, that the Demon ending has the stronger appearance of Lucifer; for one, the Child actually appears and says something, and not for something insignificant but the heralding of a continued chaotic existence for demons. For #2, yes, the Demon ending is technically Neutral I think, but maybe only on a technicality. It’s otherwise very Chaos-friendly or, at the very least, strongly anti-Law. I also agree that it represents an indecisive, vacillating stance--and is basically an indictment of the Isabeau School of Neutrality. #3, before looking up the dialogue I might have agreed but since there are multiple references to Child merely wanting entertainment with no real goal (other than possibly screwing things up, see below), the idea of Lucifer desiring the Demi-fiend emulate him seems more Maniacs.

When you consider the reaction Aradia earned from the Old Woman, Freedom doesn't seem like it was a goal for the Child either. While she says the “little master” wants to see any ending the Demi-fiend can achieve, Aradia’s appearance “can only mean trouble.” Bizarre, right? But even though it’s ultimately abortive, Aradia is Yuko’s Reason sponsor and influencer of the Freedom ending; to get it, you must answer both of Aradia's "flag" questions correctly, in addition to rejecting Isamu, Chiaki, and Hikawa when they go full demon. Another way to look at earning the Freedom ending is:

  • Initially agreeing with Isamu, Chiaki, Hikawa while they’re human to at least show them you’re listening (i.e., even though you’re a demon, you haven’t lost your humanity)
  • Sympathizing with Yuko (it’s ultimately her Reason, you’re just its agent)
  • Disagree when Isamu, Chiaki, Hikawa go off the deep end (reject their demonic selves)
So, Aradia appearing means Freedom is possible, meaning that the world might just turn back to the way it was; the Old Woman’s reaction also implying that this result was unexpected. Even though Probably Lucifer interjects in the Freedom ending with some vague warning about the future that is probably more about humanity screwing itself over again than anything supernatural (SJ has something similar, IIRC), returning to reality’s status quo is a big loss for the demonic, as to have free rein again they have to wait and hope that some dunce reads a banned book or opens a dimensional portal.

It’s also worth noting that Maniacs’ backstory retcon for Aradia is-- completely expected at this point--mostly rubbish that contradicts what happens in the main story. The Lady in Black names her an outsider from another Vortex World, an intruder; “There is little that she can do in a Vortex World where her existence is forbidden.” This ignores a few things:

  • Aradia affects Yuko, who can affect you and the outcome.
  • Aradia powers you up, giving you two more demon slots. The game literally says: “> You received power from Aradia. > You can now employ 2 additional demons.” I think this one’s hilarious.
  • Aradia has either foresight or omniscience, as she informs you to find Chiaki in Ikebukuro before she fuses with Gozu-Tennoh.
  • In the showdown with Hikawa in the Diet Building he calls Aradia “powerless in this warded area” where he summons Ahriman. You know, the cool one that looks like an acid trip. This appears to be true, as Aradia sets off of her own volition after Yuko refuses to go with her. He then calls her a “false god,” which allows the spicier takes to enter the ring but hardly implies extra-dimensional being; indeed, from Hikawa’s perspective it’s also a true statement since Aradia herself was not powerful enough to pair with Yuko and establish a Reason--the whole point of the Vortex World exercise. But because she’s “powerless” in a specific area, the implication is that she could have achieved more if the circumstances were different or she had a home field advantage.
This may seem like minor stuff in the grand scheme of things. But what are Baal Avatar, Noah, or Ahriman affecting? They have more potency and are actual bosses, but they have a far weaker impact on the unfolding narrative than Aradia. Aradia only appears “weak” because she is reflective of Yuko’s own state and her influence on the Vortex World, which seems insignificant compared to the others at the surface level. Isamu is using the Amala Network to his advantage (i.e., guzzling Magatsuhi), Chiaki is just beating up fools (guzzling Magatsuhi), and Hikawa is the Man with the Plan and the Magatsuhi. Yuko is less of a guzzler but nonetheless remains the human link to the most important player in the story--you, of course; she somehow has the Magatsuhi-filled Yahirono Himorogi (she's the sacrificial Maiden, I guess is why), which she gives you after she's already dead... somehow. It’s meaningful that Aradia’s representation is just Yuko with a Rorschach inkblot over her face--the game is asking you to interpret Yuko’s words and place in the story, which is crucial for a sane outcome. Yuko and Aradia have power than transcends raw strength.

This is why the Maniacs content has emerged to me as a clumsy dog and pony show. It basically just casts aside all this awesome, carefully planned story for the sake of another rote power fantasy. I say that only because the TDE has effectively subjugated all other endings in the discourse and even received official validation with 4A’s DLC. It’s all quite discouraging for those who want just a tad more complexity or variety from their RPG stories--not asking for Moby Dick or Finnegans Wake here, just something more ambitious or differently flavored than Shonenpunch Godwars!

Some extras: 

It hit me while writing this that the Lucifer avatars in Nocturne don't have heterochromatic eyes like SMT1's Louis Bowie has. This seemed significant (was the Child even originally envisioned as Lucifer or was it a red herring?) but then Soren reminded me that all subsequent Kaneko Lucifer avatars just have two grey eyes, too, until Doi's Lucigirl revived blue and red.


And lastly, I want to say it’s amazing how that, even in a game you’ve played a half dozen times, you obtain a much clearer picture of plot details by just reading the script or watching a movie of the cutscenes. It seems it's a real challenge for the brain to recall seemingly minor but ultimately significant details when they are separated by dozens of hours of gameplay! I would have never remembered these finer details of Nocturne cutscenes on my own.

4. And Now, the All-New Conclusion: Patterns in Atlus Enhanced Edition Content (Dec. 11, 2019) [UPDATED 6/7/22 with commentary in brackets]

 
We've weathered how many Atlus special expanded editions now? One-dozen... thousand? Seems like that many. Most follow a disturbingly similar formula: new dungeon/path with new final boss, new girl related to new dungeon/path. Oh, and some polish to the gameplay mechanics + new demons/personas.

Toki, an Atlus Enhanced Edition Girl in a game
that's (technically) not an enhanced version
It's great when gameplay is improved and such refinements are where Atlus excels. However, as this post compilation shows, it's the added story that falters more often than not. It can feel unnaturally grafted on without concern for the original script (Maniacs), intrusive to the original narrative (Strange Journey Redux, Persona 4 Golden), or just plain unnecessary (take your pick of games). It's extra content for extra content's sake, to encourage double dipping or provide a few more bullet-points to persuade fence-sitters to shell out for the full-priced special edition instead of the discounted original. And since these editions are like clockwork, there's honestly little risk at this point to wait for the upgrade. That we constantly fail at waiting is why Atlus keeps getting away with it.

But back to Nocturne. It already has one special version under its belt, two if you count the Raidou Chronicle one. However, it's undoubtedly going to be re-released again for modern consoles sooner or later. The question is, will they stuff it with even more garbage? [This was written half a year before Nocturne HD was announced!]

Maybe we could get off easy and they'll only tinker with the mechanics, some of which could really use a tune-up. Here are some ideas:

  • Skill selection during fusion [We got it! In a post-release update!]
  • Field icon battles instead of random battles; or maybe some other way of addressing the random battles because Nocturne environments without complete emptiness just wouldn't be Nocturne! [Nope, too much work!]
  • Demi-fiend's learned skills infinitely swappable instead of disappearing forever once swapped out [Nope!]
  • New magatama and skills, the latter including the now requisite severe almighty + debuff (Jihad, Antichthon) [There's a pattern forming...]
  • The demon conversation quality of life improvements from SMT4 and 4A; or some kind of "app" system like those games or Strange Journey [Of course not]
  • Maybe a good dozen or so extra Kaneko demons; Mara, Alice, Moh Shuvuu worth it if we can get some actually interesting faces like Lugh, Zaou Gongen, etc. [Sadly...]
  • A new, well-designed demon or two [It was a lot to ask for, really]
  • The option to turn off the inevitable story voice acting without it affecting the amazing original demon battle voices (this is such a small thing that will be tragic to lose and inevitably so because I can't help but feel the acting in any language will be rote and mismatched to the game's tone) [Yes! This was possible! Monkey paw: the demon voices were mostly re-recorded for the worse]
  • Unsure about the Demi-fiend's death not being an instant game over, but making that at least an option would be welcome; or, make that a feature of a new Easy mode that would allow more people to experience the game [Easy mode was added!]
  • Similarly, save anywhere? The palpable tension between save points and healing springs would be lost, but that's probably no big deal [Suspend save added!]
  • Fuse anywhere? I miss the atmosphere and commitment of the Cathedral of Shadows as a location and I doubt they'd completely expunge it from the game where the protagonist has no COMP, but a limited capability version for convenience could work [Nope, would have required something new]

There's potentially more, but that's plenty. Any of these ideas would objectively improve the gameplay experience for one or all.

Atlus USA on janitorial duty, but covering up
for Atlus Japan's sins in the process
But let's be real, we won't get off easy. The human characters will be slightly redesigned to match Doi's own style for the inevitable new girl. It doesn't even seem possible for Nocturne but they will shoehorn her in somehow. But where? They can't pull an Alex or Marie because the Amala subquest and the Fiends are already using the "intrusion" gimmick. Don't expect a female Demi-fiend either; Atlus' tendency to avoid easily-implemented character customization in their largely silent protagonist-filled games is legendary. And never forget that the last time an internally-developed Megami Tensei game gave players a gender selection--P3P--its Japanese script allowed the female protagonist implied pedophilia with a 10-year-old boy. At a loss for words here.

Still, I think there are two possibilities for a Nocturne new girl: a new friend or a girl sick in the hospital. It wouldn't take too much effort to add an introduction to a new friend pre-Conception, either on the Tokyo map or somewhere else in the hospital; Chiaki and Isamu never interact in the hospital and with an extra line from both mentioning this new friend, she could be quickly established. Sick girl would make less sense but there are a lot of rooms in the hospital and maybe one was... locked? And Hikawa and Yoko overlooked it? But post-Conception, bam, she's no longer sick and wanders the Vortex World. Either girl adds a new Reason and a new world map location and dungeon that unlocks the Reason (and post-Kagutsuchi final boss), hopefully different enough from the Labyrinth to feel distinct.

Maybe this hypothetical is a bit overly-optimistic for one of Atlus' worst trends, but imagining it this way honestly doesn't seem that bad. It's unnecessary, yes, and new girl's Reason and the philosophy behind it will probably poorly match the original script and story, yes, and... well, that's still the entire point. How much restraint can they show? How much faith do they have that the Maniacs Team's eponymous product is worth re-releasing as-is (excluding gameplay fixes) 15+ years later? The answer to both: very little. [This prediction of new "Atlus girl" in Nocturne's "inevitable remaster" had its biggest failing in assuming they would want to spend a lot of money on it... obviously, this didn't come to pass, and for the better. But based on the trends at the time, it seemed like an easy bet. In fact, Yamai said of SMT3HD that its concept was that of "respect for the original work," which seems pretty fair overall.]

What an adorable rapist Atlus/Sega have available for sale!
More than plot, mechanics, music, etc., Atlus is in the character business. Their characters drive their games' (read: Persona's) popularity in spite of weak narratives and/or unsatisfying conclusions with questionable execution and bare minimum character development where one change is all characters tend to (canonically) get. And Atlus is very happy to oblige with character merchandise and character-focused spinoffs like the Persona Q series or Strikers, which will probably have more cutscenes than the average Musou game (which would only be respectful to the original IP).

To put this into perspective, think of Shin Megami Tensei IV or Apocalypse and how different their characters seemed from traditional SMT characters, particularly Apocalypse's. It's the same philosophy of excessive dialogue to make the characters seem more personable but really to hide the lack of genuine growth, vignettes with attempted humor or awkward sexual innuendo, and trait-based characterizations and motivations to give a cast "character"--but not depth. So far, this hasn't really panned out for Shin Megami Tensei, from Atlus' perspective or from ours, probably because of the series' extremely unrealistic setting. But will they keep trying? You betcha. SMT5 just needs to sell 3.2 million copies and its characters will automatically become iconic. Them's just the rules.  

All this is to say that when Atlus has an opportunity to sell another character, they're gonna take it. Quantity over quality--surely one or more will stick eventually. And art isn't art when the "wrong" art doesn't follow current company values and could impede product sales; Strange Journey Redux proved that nothing is sacred. Historical sales failure Nocturne is just asking to be profaned.

Skill selection, though? A sanctification.  

52 comments:

  1. Hmm, from the way you describe Yamai, I get the image that he and those around him copy from the past instead of learning from it. And instead of wishing to create, they wish to please when they make games.

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    1. Hey Mattias! I got your 4A submission by the way. Honestly...I got tired of criticizing 4A. It's just exhausting after a while.

      And reproducing something from the past without actually understanding the meaning behind it isn't exclusive to Yamai. So much of the "nostalgia culture" of today reeks of it. While some superficial fun can be cathartic, the real shame I think is when you have the chance to create something new but you fall back on the tried and true that fans seemingly can't get enough of. It's that old conundrum of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

      But if you're willing to help me with something on a larger scale, send me a message on Tumblr. I can give you some more details then! :)

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    2. Actually, that submission was an error on my part, it was meant to be a question but I got things mixed up due to my general unfamiliarity with tumblr. I only realized in hindsight.

      And yea, I agree on the damned if you do, damned if you don't assessment. There are few people nowadays with the guts to break away from old conventions. Taro Yoko is maybe the only creator I know of today that do this on a regular basis.

      But one thing though, I do think it is actually important for this series to have at least a few nods to the past here and there to just give a feeling of connectivity and sense of grandeur to the whole thing, though I still think it could have been done better. The idea was good, execution not so much.

      And while I don't know of how much help I'll be, I'll gladly provide any help I can. (Just don't expect a long write-up, that is unfortunately one of my big weaknesses.)

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    3. Yeah, it will be more about research and critical thinking than writing. I just know I'll need help collating certain things. I'll get started organizing it whenever I finish a few other writing projects. Too much going on at once !

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    4. Matteste, I debunk this entire, terribly written and thought through blog post below. Please give it a read. Thank you.

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  2. This just reads as a mindless, stupid whining shitfest. Hijiri's name was implied to be "saint", a reference to his name as Aleph even before Maniacs. His dialogue before his second death by Isamu reveals that he's conscious of some of his life and was a clear indication that you never paid attention to anything regarding the nuance of the game. The entire set-up was a build-up for the curse revealed at the end of the True Demon Ending route. You clearly don't understand themes, you don't even seem to understand that manikins are created from powerful, lasting human emotions taken physical form through mud, it's not really hard for Kagutsuchi to do this, especially since we are given a scene in which he bestowed Hijiri the task.

    Lastly, you seemed to totally fail to understand even the basics of the basics about the tragic aspect, showing that you never really paid attention to the game's content. I'm embarrassed for you, truly. The point of him dying before the ending was explicitly - and I do mean explicitly since the Lady in Black outright says it - to show that his cursed task is utterly impossible and that he's condemned forever.

    I don't get it anymore with you "old-time" fans, you keep shitting on everything Atlus makes, whine and complain over and over ad nauseam calling everything they do shit after that stupid piece of crap game, Shin Megami Tensei II. And keep praising the crappeist piece of shit game in the series, SMT2. Like, holy shit, all you people ever want to do is replay SMT2 over and over with no frickin' deviation, "Atlus is being edgy cuz' Dagda's an asshole! Hijiri's an asshole!", the only thing "edgy" is their clear and deliberate reference to the fucking Holocaust in SMT2, in which they heavily insinuated that Christianity caused the Holocaust, or did you not understand that subtext in SMT2? Or how about the shitty, meaningless twist about Hiroko being Aleph's mother, which added nothing to the story? Or the shitty beginning, or just how the game played like utter shit and is an embarrassment to the franchise as a whole?

    You're right, they need to stop harping on the shit game that was Shin Megami Tensei II and keep making really good games like Shin Megami Tensei 3 Nocturne and Shin Megami Tensei IV and IV Apocalypse. The best games in the series. Fuck Shin Megami Tensei II, it's an overrated piece of crap that's unplayable by today's standards.

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    1. This is almost, ALMOST, as constructive a criticism as the person who told me to jump in front of a train for writing Identity Crisis. Keep it up, Jarin. :)

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    2. I've never heard of "identity crisis" before your response to me. Maybe stop being paranoid about haters and accept the fact that your views are just terrible and poorly thought out?

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  3. Interesting! I really enjoy reading your opinions, specially that SMTIV analysis. I'm really hyped for your opinion on Apocalypse!

    Just out of curiosity, favourite SMT games? Mine are Nocturne, SMT1 and MT2

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    1. Thanks Josep! I'm glad you're a real person; I honestly thought your comment on Identity Crisis was from a bot! lol

      If you want my opinion on Apocalypse, I probably won't be writing an essay for it like I did 4. But instead, I started doing a semi-LP of the game when it came out last year. Starts more or less here: http://talking-time.net/showthread.php?t=17319&page=13

      My favorite SMT games are Nocturne and SJ, I think because they tend to be more abstract in setting. I find that more immersive than the "concrete" style apocalypse, following the distinction I made in IC.

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  4. Hi, I didn't think my question would produce such a long answer! Thank you. :)

    I'm a pro-hijiri-is-aleph guy myself but yeah, reading that makes me rethink about the tenuous connection between the game. I still believe they half-made Hijiri as Aleph expy, as you say, why bring "Mortal Sin" if you do not explain it?

    I'm still bummed the change of personnality of Hijiri (when he goes cuckoo) is cutted short by Isamu however. It's a point of the game that could be expanded (well, you'd have to rewrite some parts of the game but oh well).

    Have a nice day.

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    1. Thanks for asking! :)

      This is a contentious issue, it seems, I think partly because the whole idea of a connected SMT Multiverse in part hinges on Hijiri being Aleph. That would be the smoking gun. Whether or not it's implied in Maniacs (honestly, it doesn't matter), the other games released since don't seem to care about upholding one of the LiB's main claims, that Hijiri has to witness all Law/Chaos conflicts. If so, where is Hijiri in Strange Journey? He could be Jimenez. Who's to say he's not? What about SMT4? Maybe he's actually Akira. It wouldn't affect a thing--which is exactly my point, that it's meaningless.

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    2. Yeah, I get that and it's true after Nocturne, there's no reference of Aleph in the series. And yeah, it's meaningless after all. They may have dropped the link when they passed the baton to the new team (the same way SMT3 wasn't a sequel of SMT2).

      Or maybe SJ and 4/4A occurs before SMT2/3, so that's why Aleph isn't around, he don't have commited the mortal/ultimate sin yet. As 4/SJ don't have a clear connection with the past games (only throwbacks), they can occur without the other games. Lucifer isn't the same and I don't think Stephen or Yuriko makes a real reference to past game (I may be forgetting something and Stephen being Stephen, the point becames a little moot), the only real connection is the Messiah DLC but with the power of Stephen, he could brought them from the future as he brought them from the "past".

      YHVH also seemed way more forgiving in this game than in 2, he tells you he will forget you if you turn back from his domain and all that. From what I recall, he was way more angry at everything in SMT2, but i played it long time ago so my memory may be fuzzy.

      That could be me, trying to read way more than it should. But either way, it's meaningless, so yeah, bummer.

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    3. You bring up a good point though, similar to what I said about Jimenez and Akira, that this is such a pointless addition that it could be applied arbitrarily to just about anywhere in the series, to anyone. The consequences don't even fit the character as originally written; why does being the puppet of a cruel supernatural spirit fit a guy who was shown to go insane because of his own experiences and interpretations? The extra content tries to paint the picture that Hijiri has no control over what happens to him, but he clearly makes choices in the original narrative.

      You can say that Hijiri actually didn't have control over his actions, because of the connections to Amala. But...Isamu had those same connections. Isamu was even living in that space. The commonality both characters and their Amala experiences share is that they undergo change. They "go nuts." The original narrative has copious evidence to explain Hijiri's behavior and motivations. Besides, a retroactive claim that a character has no control over their actions, even intentionally added to a narrative, is just...weak. You could say that about anyone; it's practically a deus ex machina device.

      My final take on the matter is that I think most fans will only approach things like this from the perspective of whether or not it fits into the series lore; criticism doesn't factor in because they (we; heck, I know I've done this in the past) assume everything is "for a reason." "God works in mysterious ways"--sound familiar? :p Hijiri's example is certainly ill-defined enough to work that way; you don't even have to twist things that much, just give a moderate reading of certain open-ended information.

      But I'm approaching it from an execution standpoint, where I am more concerned about the quality of the narrative (as written by a human author, who may make mistakes and have ideas that don't mesh with those of an original author, if relevant) rather than interpreting every element as a potential piece to a grander puzzle. Nocturne's narrative is honestly quite simple! In comparison, this Hijiri business stood out to me especially as convoluted. But even Hijiri-Aleph was the intent of the author, and it honestly doesn't look pretty for that idea, my point stands that it's just poorly written and executed.

      SMT games have plenty of ideas that should probably be happening constantly or across multiple games, but, by and large, the rule has been to make most of them self-contained. The Amala Universe is a grand space, but still only mentioned in Nocturne. Mem Aleph getting mad at humans for abusing the Earth and creating the Schwarzwelt could also happen in just about any game. Heck, she'd probably get mad at YHVH for abusing the Earth, too. Hijiri's past, like many other examples, also seems to have been deemed proprietary.

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    4. None of them had control to prevent themselves from going nuts. They weren't able to fight against demons, they were constantly putting their lives at risk (Isamu gets imprisoned and tortured twice while Chiaki got her arm cut off), and became extreme as a result of being victims of the world. Hijiri was always a victim, Isamu and Chiaki were victims, and the only two who weren't were the Teacher and Hikawa.

      Oh, and by the by, I just debunked your terrible nonsense of a blog post below. Enjoy!

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  5. After reflecting on this a bit, I realize that the Hijiri/Aleph question is a lose/lose situation for how we conceive of SMT III in general. This is our most sacred cow--the game we tell everyone to be the pinnacle of Megaten. But the game as a whole loses its authorial authenticity if we follow the dominant western reading, while its most defining and arduous alignment path suffers significantly in its perceived quality of writing if we follow the dominant Japanese reading.

    Assuming that Hijiri is Aleph in Nocturne, was he originally supposed to be Aleph in vanilla III? The evidence is overwhelmingly stacked against that. Only two lines of dialogue in vanilla III could suggest he's Aleph, and they are anything but overt;
    "In a world like this, one life doesn't amount to much..." (ascribed to him by Isamu)
    "Most things that are worthwhile require some sort of sacrifice. I've made many sacrifices in my lifetime. But, I've always followed the path that I believe in. Just remember, you'll pay a high price for following that path." (final scene)
    The former quote was justifying a plan to kill either Isamu or the Demi-fiend, and has to be read in retrospect with knowledge from the Amala labyrinth to make sense as an allusion to living multiple lives. The latter is vague enough that it can fit either reading of Hijiri. It works for the fringe journalist studying the occult, pursuing information until it kills him--and while it also works for a cursed man being reborn many times, you *need* an expository telling-the-reader sequence in the Labyrinth to make Hijiri=Aleph work. What does that attest to how Yamai changed SMT III? The issue of authorial intent gets tossed around quite casually in gaming to critique modifying ideas in translation, but here we have a case where the intent is modified in a simple rerelease with no translation involved. Yamai was not there in SMT III, and now he is here in Nocturne--do his deviations from III's ideas make Nocturne a less valid version of III's narrative? We are faced with the bizarre paradox that the "inferior" version of III is the one with the most cohesive writing, and the one truest to its original concept.

    Assuming that Hijiri is not and was never intended to be Aleph, not even in Nocturne--the dominant Japanese reading--then the True Demon path suffers for it. The path needs a "sinner" for the Great Will to make an example of, to stand as an example for the player of what could happen to them based on their decisions, acting as a moral pivot like an alignment representative. Yamai appropriates an unrelated character from vanilla III to fulfill that role. But instead of their sin being somehow tied to their existing role, we now have a character who (with zero foreshadowing or prior allusion of any kind) is post-mortem explained to be some rando saddled with an eternal curse and a purpose that is never clearly addressed outside of a single scene. Essentially, this reading assumes that Amala's only human alignment representative (Hijiri) is badly written.

    The scene has a deeper resonance for the SMT veteran if Hijiri is Aleph, but then it's committing infidelity to Isogai & Komori's ideas. Either way, it becomes harder to parade the cow around.

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    1. Your comment is a self-contradiction. Hijiri's very name, Jyoji meaning Saint, implied that there was something more to him. The symbolism of him on a cross was obviously symbolic of Aleph when he said those lines, and the very beginning rightfully pointed out that he was not in the hospital. You just failed at looking at the symbolism and agree with a translator who thinks their opinions are god's gift to earth, when he's just an unreasoned and incoherent. He hates anything that isn't SMT2 and disparages anyone who disagrees with his poorly constructed and poorly analyzed views.

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    2. Okay dude, I suggest you keep your temper tantrums aimed at me instead of other commenters. This is your first and only warning.

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    3. Touya, thanks much for writing that.

      It's a good point, one I honestly hadn't thought of, that Hijiri was intended to be a sort of TDE alignment rep. But since I approached this from the standpoint of basic character and story development, it so poorly supports its goal that I never interpreted it that way. You're never given any reason to pay attention to his actions with this in mind.

      Additionally, the idea that his own life is out of his control I find suspect because Hijiri's character unravels because his OWN decisions. From the first time you meet him, he's obsessed with the terminals. That seals his fate. This never dovetails with the idea that he's a puppet of some unseen force floating in space.

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    4. His life doesn't unravel because of his own decisions. It wasn't safe for him to leave at various points except through the Terminal, AFTER Demifiend had already cleared it. He had nothing to do except obsess over the terminal. Nothing was his choice. You interpret "go crazy" as a choice. None of the cast, save Hikawa, actually had any such choice.

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    1. The Jarin Jove Experience performing Have You Ever Been (To Electric Loonyland)

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    2. He's running around /r/megaten acting incredulous that people disagree with his personal interpretation of parts of iva that he made up in his head. And he's accusing a lot of people of being alts of eachother for saying the same things because he apparently literally can't comprehend that maybe he's the one getting it wrong and that they are saying similar things because they are describing the game's actual content to him.

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    3. He left me some very...interesting...replies on Pt 3 of Identity Crisis last year (though above he claims never to have heard of it). So yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

      Keep it glued here, as it's looking like tomorrow I will be posting a long analysis of Dagda, which I think is his preferred topic in 4A. I'm expecting to be called "an embarrassment," a "waste of space," "self-contradictory," etc. Honestly, I can't wait! :)

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    4. I left even more interesting comments below. I can't believe you had all the evidence regarding the Tree of Death literally right there and weren't able to understand it. How is it that I figured it out in less than 5 minutes from a picture that you yourself put together? How did you do all that research and not realize that Fiends - unequivocal symbols of Death - were referring to the Tree of Death and not the Tree of Life? It was an obvious reference once you have that image and you somehow didn't realize the explicitly obvious Tree of Death reference?

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  7. i need a translation of these blogs uwu

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    1. A translation debunking his blog post is provided below. Please read.

      Delete
  8. So, all this attention to a fairly minor character, what's the point in the grand scheme of things? Let's try to brush aside the glaring plot holes, to what end does this revelation serve, outside of fan service?

    Really good read. I'm fairly new to your blog and while I like your other articles where you talk about demons and their mythologies and their roles in the game's plot, this is a nice one.

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    1. Thanks much!

      The next one will be about Japanese-Jewish Common Ancestry Theory and its relation to the series. The details of that should be forehead-slappable!

      Delete
    2. "Plot Hole" Jossed. The evidence suggests Eirikjrs made this theory without even playing through the True Demon Ending. I provide the evidence below.

      Delete
  9. At this point, I think it would be preferable to place the I/II, Nocturne, and the IV/IV-A into separate canons. While Hijiri could be an expy for Aleph, given the symbolism and allusions to an 'ultimate sin', saying they're one and the same raises too many issues, and doesn't really add anything meaningful to Nocturne itself. Hell, one of the main reasons Nocturne was disconnected from previous entries was so the creators wouldn't have to worry about conflicts in continuity. It's easier to tackle and explore certain concepts/ideas when each game or set of games doesn't have to strictly connect with each other.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Not sure where those extra the's came from, but oh well.

      Delete
    2. I just debunked his "argument" please read below.

      Delete
  10. That's the thing, I and II / Nocturne / SMT4 and Apocalypse are all part of their own individual canons as intended, but the problem is that they can play the "interdimensional" card anytime they want as we saw with Apocalypse's Heroes DLC. But I think that's more likely to come into play when they can charge extra for it.

    But you're right, Nocturne represented a new way of doing things. If SMT5 is taking inspiration from it, will it look to that or...?

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    1. Hey, I just debunked your entire blog post. Since I'm sure that reading below will upset you, amuse yourself with this before you enjoy a thorough thrashing as I thoroughly destroy your laughably brittle arguments using simple logic. Honestly, if this was the level of your ability to analyze themes and lore, then the entire community has misjudged your
      supposed abilities. If not for great scans of artwork that you repeatedly say that you hate, the community would have no use for you.

      "We'll sacrifice Eirikjrs Integrity!
      His fans greatest glimpse of fallen cred!
      Oh, how they're lost in their praise for our greatest troll!
      Let me not, wheeze! I'm all too human!
      I am tired as heart and person reckon!
      On the name of -!
      Eirikir!
      I will not crack!
      Can you hear me?
      Eirikir!
      I will not crack!
      Can you hear me?"

      Delete
  11. "But to save myself some writing and you some reading: this doesn’t actually work, sadly. It seems to be on the right track up until White Rider at Chesed, but the idea of some secret, ordered kabbalistic subtext falls apart at Pale Rider’s placement via his candelabrum. It just doesn’t make sense for him to be at the highest level of the Tree when he isn’t the last one you fight; Trumpeter should have been the Majesty/Kether rep instead."

    It doesn't. I checked your image and decided to look into the meaning of each term. Pale Rider represents Death, the Kether is symbolically the highest, but regards itself as the lowest being "hidden" and is "colorles" and "invisible". I got curious enough to check the others and sure enough... they all represent the Qliphoth, the Demonic reversal of the Kaabalah teachings. Not sure how you missed this, since all I did was follow your own picture placement and literally the information was all there in each Wiki article. They represent the reversal of Kaabalah since Qliphoth is literally "World of Chaos" which would be the more accurate interpretation. If anything, Atlus made this very easy to understand for anyone who checked, so I'm confused how you put so much effort... and totally missed the completely obvious that you yourself put together.

    Keter = Colorless and Invisible Compassion -> Atlus reverses this with Death. When Demifiend conquers the tree, he symbolically surpasses death. Self-explanatory.

    Yesod = Communication and contact -> Atlus reverses this with a competitor seeking to win a bloody feud who refuses to listen to you.

    Hod = Art, music, culture -> Atlus reverses this with a Qliphoth reference to The filthy wailing of a literal Failed Creation.

    Netzach -> Fouled Substance of God, Daisoujou is a reference to a Buddhist practice whereby monk's body would be entombed and exhumed hundreds of years later, and if relatively intact would be hailed as a God.

    Tphereth represents beauty, the Qliphoth version represents ugliness and a revolt against God. That's literally Mother Harlot's background to a T.

    Gevurah -> Those who wish to force their will upon others through their own Strength, Atlus is cleverly mocking Trumpeter being the call for Yahweh to literally slaughter the world since the End of Times clearly contradicts ruling by Righteousness.

    Chesad: plentitude and mercy, goodness and compassion reversed to the Qliphoth version of wasting away the plentitude due to the desire for Conquest and destroying others lives. Additionally plentitude of bountiful things is reversed by White Rider symbolizing pestilence.

    Binah: Represents structure by following the guide of the Divine / Atlus reverses this by cleverly mocking with Red Rider, who symbolizes War at the End of Times.

    Chochmah: Symbolizes vital energy of God, and is reversed by the Qliphoth symbol of being empty of God by having Black Rider, who symbolizes Famine during the End of Times.

    Da'at: Knowledge, Atlus reverses this with Dante literally not knowing the full details of what was going on until way later after having given you the Menorah.

    ReplyDelete
  12. "But wait! There's more nonsense with Hijiri's role as a witness! So his punishment is to record what happens for eternity, right? But just a few sentences after the Lady in Black says that, she notes: "Tragically, he has no memory of his sin, his punishment, or even his death." In other words, Hijiri has no idea what he's doing. He cannot recall his purpose. You might even say that this completely undermines this entire backstory, but it (surprisingly) doesn't explain what happens to Hijiri's soul after death--does he experience a recap of events like you'd see at the beginning of a TV show, which he then feverishly scrawls on parchment before being reincarnated again? Either way, another problem with this idea is that Hijiri dies before he can witness the resolution of the Vortex World's conflicts! It's like he was sent off to sea before the airing of the season finale, adrift in a vessel with no satellite signal, let alone a VCR or TiVo (hey, this is 2003)."

    By the way, your claims about Lady in Black are also wrong. She literally explains what you're accusing her of in the very dialogue that you cherrypicked since you obviously tried to make Atlus seem as stupid as possible because of your anti-Japanese animus. The Lady in Black explicitly made it clear that he's not meant to finish recording history, the actual point is that he's meant to suffer:

    LADY IN BLACK:
    It was all because of the mortal sin which he committed... He was a being
    toyed with by fate, condemned to carry the burden of atonement forever. His
    punishment was to see with his own eyes all that happens in the world, to
    record the balance of events through all the ages. A task as endless as
    scooping water out of the sea with a cup... He was condemned to wander the
    infinite span of time.

    And she did clear up what happens to him after death, quite explicitly:

    LADY IN BLACK:
    He is now on a journey to a new land of suffering, but his will can never
    be freed, and his sin never redeemed...

    He's going to one of the many billions of worlds in Amala to do the task again. Y'know, the billions of worlds of Amala... that were explained in the verrrry beginning of the Kalpa lectures.

    ReplyDelete
  13. "Moreover, the Lady in Black says Hijiri's actual form is that of a Manikin. This contradicts multiple things Hijiri says himself. He says of the Manikins' genesis, "Oh yeah, I found out something interesting about Asakusa. This is where the Manikins are created. They're made from the black mud that's scooped up from a river around here." However, Hijiri says of his Conception experience that "all of a sudden, I was blinded by a bright light and the next thing I knew, I was here in this room. I took a quick look around, and it looks like I'm in a hospital...Since you're here too, does that mean this is Shinjuku Medical Center?""

    "First, there are no other Manikins in the game that don't know they are Manikins. It would also be odd that Hijiri ended up in the hospital after being created in Asakusa, though the way things in the Vortex World are established it makes it seem that certain demon factions and the Manikins themselves existed for far longer than the few hours it takes you to be introduced to them. Nonetheless, Hijiri experiences the Conception in an instant and winds up in the hospital Terminal room. There is precedent for bodily transport, as you experience the Conception with Ms. Takao on the roof and wake up in the basement after being transformed; however, Lucifer may have moved you to the basement for symbolic "rebirth" purposes. (Come on, you know he would do something like that.) Overall, this bit of the extra scenario just seems unlikely for logistical reasons. The simpler explanation is that Hijiri, someone aware of the occult happenings at the hospital, followed your lead to investigate and got transported to the Terminal room when the Conception occurred, so he's still unsettled when he arrives. I mean, teleportation is associated with him, after all!"

    How you perceived this as a contradiction when, during the Hijiri = Aleph revelation, they literally have the scene of him being transported, I don't know... But anyway, the Manikins are made from emotions of leftover humans. Kagutsuchi, who was in the image of Hijiri being told his task, quite obviously was the one who put the Manikin body in him and transported him into the hospital. They even have clips showing this, so... did you honestly play this game beyond the beginning? Because this is beginning to look like you played 30 hours, and didn't actually do any of the True Demon Path content. They have clear images which heavily infer - if not outright show - what happened to him. How could you possibly think something this basic was a contradiction unless you didn't even watch the scene in the game?

    "The most tantalizing of YHVH's lines are those before the Neutral final battle. This is probably the entire basis for the Hijiri = Aleph hypothesis. However, this appears to be an empty threat unless YHVH actually kills Aleph which, due to our bias as players, we assume doesn't happen. On the other paths, he threatens Aleph and company to eternal torture in Hell...yet we never hear any crazy theories about those ramifications. The common threat all three paths share is that, after defeat, YHVH says the Great Will (through human desire) will revive him. This is probably the actual "punishment": Humans need to tread carefully and depend on each other rather than the supernatural, as the specter of Law/Neutral/Chaos looms ever large."
    Did you even spend 2 seconds of thought on this one? A being who can be revived over and over, who threatens eternal damnation on those who oppose him. 1 + 1 = 2. He wouldn't even have to fight the second time, just revive and send them off to be eternally damned after their natural mortal deaths. If he revived after they died natural deaths, which the game and Lore establishes as possible, he could eternally damn them with ease.

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  14. "But refuting the Hijiri-Aleph connection is that Japanese commentary on the subject, as I’ve researched, tends to be light and what few mentions exist could be influenced by the English fanbase; I have a Japanese Nocturne: Maniacs fanbook that, as far as I can tell, makes no overt mention of the connection even though the journalist Hijiri is used as a framing device to introduce the content of each chapter. There’s also the fact that SMT4, a game even more eager than Nocturne’s bonus content to reference the past, offers no clear Aleph analogue/infinite water scooper. There was even a perfect opportunity in SMT4A’s Heroes DLC for the Demi-fiend to say to Aleph that he “seems familiar,” but that didn’t happen. And speaking of that DLC, Aleph mentions that he was killed by the Megiddo Ark, which only fires on Law--meaning they incorporated the Aleph that would be damned to eternal punishment in Hell rather than reincarnated torture. Clearly this connection has never been important to Atlus. Hijiri's past self could just as well describe an original character as much as Aleph."

    This is you taking out of context resources as "reasons" for why the theory is bogus instead of actually understanding the content. Why would a fan guide, even an official one, spoil one of the major plot twists of the game? Why would IVA's extra content spoil a major plot twist of Nocturne's game? Aleph KNOWS who SMT1 Hero is, and there's no connection mentioned there either despite them being from the same world and Hero's Statue being in SMT2. Did you even take 5 seconds to think on that obvious flaw in your argument?

    ReplyDelete
  15. "Speaking of Hijiri's "mortal sin," if killing YHVH is truly what that is describing, then Lucifer and the Lady in Black are trying to recruit the Demi-fiend to do the very same thing, even if the initial goal is to stop the cycle of creation. Wouldn't the Demi-fiend be consigned to the same fate, then? The Lady in Black doesn't think so, as she says in the concluding lines of her Hijiri dialogue, "Do you want your life to be predestined as well, or would you rather choose your own actions? If you do not wish to be ruled by destiny... If you would prefer to walk with demons on a new, untrodden path, then please come visit my master. You can open the door ahead with the candelabrum I gave you... Will you come meet my master?" She is implying that the Demi-fiend's path as a True Demon will not come at a cost like Hijiri and that this new path will be unique to him. Of course, this hinges on Lucifer being a sympathetic, trustworthy character. LUCIFER. I'll pull a Shin Megami Tensei and let you interpret that yourself. But the answer could very well be that the "mortal sin" was never killing YHVH in the first place. Maybe you were meant to come to your own conclusion? Hmm."

    You didn't play Nocturne's TDE... There's no way you could have written this and actually played the route. Oh, and please don't use that "anyone who disagrees with me is responding with a temper tantrum" nonsense this time just because people disprove your claims. I spent 4 hours reading the entirety of your JJCAT nonsense and all you did was threaten to delete my comments by assuming my intent to accuse me of behaving in a manner I didn't. You'd think spending 4 hours debunking content on your blog would be a sign of respect, but... eh, oh well.

    Anyway, that comment I just quoted is proof you didn't even play SMT Nocturne, you linked the gfaqs script yourself, why didn't you bother reading it? It's right there:

    OLD GENTLEMAN IN A WHEELCHAIR:
    A world is created,
    populated by mankind,
    and destroyed...
    This cycle is what maintains the flow of time: when the cycle stops, so does
    time. And now, time has met her death. In place of the the creation of the
    new world, a new power of darkness emerged... reigning over chaos, heaping
    death upon death. You must no longer have any notion...of where your
    strength will lead you. The Great Will shall curse you for going against his
    way, and place a heavy burden of atonement on your shoulders, which you
    shall bear for all eternity. Fear not, for only by receiving that curse can
    you truly walk the path of conquest. But first, I must know the extent of
    the power of darkness you hold within. Behold the supreme power of darkness,
    created by none other than the Great Will himself...

    Here, let me cut to the relevant portion, since you obviously don't know what you're talking about and made it demonstrably obvious:

    Old Gentleman in Wheelchair said: "The Great Will shall curse you for going against his
    way, and place a heavy burden of atonement on your shoulders, which you
    shall bear for all eternity. Fear not, for only by receiving that curse can
    you truly walk the path of conquest."

    ReplyDelete
  16. So there, I've 100% jossed your entire complaint. Surprise! It wasn't bad writing. You just seem obsessed with hating Atlus or otherwise unironically claiming an entire ethnic group and culture is xenophobic or implied to be racist. Do you even understand how that looks? You've repeatedly asserted an entire ethnic group and culture is full of xenophobic racists and anytime you don't understand something, you chalk it up to Japanese people being ignorant or racist. We get it. You hate Japanese culture, you hate Japanese people, and you most certainly hate Atlus Japan. We hear you loud and clear. Please stop making up falsehoods in order to patronizingly call an ethnic group of non-whites who suffered a racist policy of Encampment in the US as somehow intellectually inferior because you disapprove of their gaming content.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Anyway, I'm going to write a more complete rebuttal on my own blog, since I suspect you're going to just accuse me of throwing a temper tantrum for the crime of posting multiple times since the character limit in your comments section doesn't allow for a large post comparable to your blog post above. I'm not letting you live this laughable garbage that you've posted down, ever. So, I made sure to take copious screen caps everything in case you try to lie or mislead your "fans" on what my objections are. I'll also be sure to keep a copy of this entire blog post. Since you seemed soooo keen on insinuating I was pissed off last time, here's what happens when someone gets pissed off, but can remain articulate and give measured responses. Look forward to it! You brought it upon yourself.

    Oh, and to give you a hint as to where my blog post response will be going, you are flat out wrong about Hijiri manipulating Demifiend. He never manipulated you. Isamu only comments that he thought up a way to get Magatsuchi and had nefarious plans to use you or Isamu for it. But having nefarious plans doesn't actually mean that he manipulated you. If anything, he always told you the truth.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Actually, fuck it. I'll just point out the damning flaw in your argument. Music to your ears. Here is Fierce Battles Lyrics:

    https://soundcloud.com/thegameexplorer/shin-megami-tensei-nocturne-fierce-battle-vocals-only

    Now this music was added in Nocturne Maniax and is quite clearly foreshadowing the Metatron Boss fight and giving Metatron's views on Demifiend as Demifiend slowly, and willingly, joins Lucifer for the TDE Route.

    Now, here is Boss Battle's lyrics:

    "We'll sacrifice the son of Heaven!
    Man's greatest glimpse of fire red!
    Oh, how they're lost in their prayers for our greatest god!
    Let me sleep, please! I am a man, half-human!
    I am tired as heart and person weaken!
    On the name of God! I will not crack!
    Can you hear them?
    God! I will not crack!
    Can you hear them?"

    Boss Battle was part of Vanilla Nocturne. Who are these lyrics referring to? It's not the Teacher, it's not any of the Reason representatives. It's not the 2 prominent Manikins in the story. The lyrics are talking TO Demifiend, so it can't be Demifiend. The only one who was sacrificed in a Christ-like symbol and who said he wanted sleep was Hijiri. The lyrics, symbolism, and so on suggest - at least circumstantially - that Hijiri being Aleph wasn't something shoehorned in. They had intended to make it part of the story, but actually did have to cut it. Atlus's official reason for making Nocturne Maniax was that they didn't get to add all the creative aspects that they wanted. Evidently, nobody believed them, when the lyrics from their vanilla version seem to suggest otherwise. So yeah, Boss Battle's lyrics - which were in Vanilla Nocturne - seem to indicate they always intended for Hijiri to be revealed as Aleph. Nobody else fits the lyrics.

    ReplyDelete
  19. "Speaking of Hijiri's "mortal sin," if killing YHVH is truly what that is describing, then Lucifer and the Lady in Black are trying to recruit the Demi-fiend to do the very same thing, even if the initial goal is to stop the cycle of creation. Wouldn't the Demi-fiend be consigned to the same fate, then? The Lady in Black doesn't think so, as she says in the concluding lines of her Hijiri dialogue, "Do you want your life to be predestined as well, or would you rather choose your own actions? If you do not wish to be ruled by destiny... If you would prefer to walk with demons on a new, untrodden path, then please come visit my master. You can open the door ahead with the candelabrum I gave you... Will you come meet my master?" She is implying that the Demi-fiend's path as a True Demon will not come at a cost like Hijiri and that this new path will be unique to him. Of course, this hinges on Lucifer being a sympathetic, trustworthy character. LUCIFER. I'll pull a Shin Megami Tensei and let you interpret that yourself. But the answer could very well be that the "mortal sin" was never killing YHVH in the first place. Maybe you were meant to come to your own conclusion? Hmm."

    Ohhh, I forgot something~ There was so much of your smug attitude in this post, that I temporarily forgot until I was reminded alongside people who I shared this post with!

    She was specifically giving you a choice. Throughout the entire game, one of their core aims was that you willingly chose to accept their offer of your own accord. She was not implying that his fate wouldn't be cursed like Hijiri's. She was equivocating. You had to make the choice yourself with them holding out on you so that you would make the decision for yourself:

    LADY IN BLACK:
    You have vanquished all the Fiends, and now you stand here, just as he
    hoped... A demon
    with the strength to become the champion of chaos... Moniker... Will you
    lend your strength to us, for the sake of all who live in darkness? I cannot
    force you to help us...If you choose to walk the path of a human, then there
    is no need for you to return here. But, if you have doubts about the laws of
    the universe... about fate, or the providence of the Absolute One...then you
    should come to us, at the very bottom of the Labyrinth. There you shall be
    born again as a full demon, body and soul... Let me conclude by telling you
    about a human who has crossed your path...one who is drifting, being kept
    alive by fate. It is my master's wish that you listen before deciding upon
    a path to take.

    ReplyDelete
  20. For anyone who cares, here's a more thorough rebuttal. The first one is literally using quotes from the game to utterly debunk everything that he said here in his "Maniacs-retcon-woes" blog post. The second one criticizes his misunderstanding of Kabbalah.

    https://jarinjove.com/2020/07/07/debunking-eirikrjs/ - Debunking most of this blog post's points, if not all of them.

    https://jarinjove.com/2020/06/27/debunk-eirikrjrs/ - Debunking his Kabbalah criticisms.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Wow here I thought you were a lunatic but after reading this debunking, you aren't even the lunatic, it's the guy who created this thread with this shitty post. Like the dude didn't even reply to this, he ignored it and is painting you out to be the bad guy. Splendid work my man.

      Delete
    2. Thanks. And yeah, I think the HD Remaster probably helped, because now more people are playing Nocturne and can see Eirikrjrs argument doesn't follow the actual lore and facts within the context of the game's story. His argument involving the Yahirono Himorogi alone made me realize that he couldn't possibly have played the game, even if he missed the narrative's heavy emphasis on Yuko Takao being the root cause of Chiaki, Isamu, and Demi-fiend becoming what they were in the True Demon route.

      For those who understandably missed it, and why Yuko Takao is quite honestly the true villain of the game:

      Isamu and Yuko Takao both manipulate and use the Demi-fiend making him put all the effort so they can obtain the benefits of his hard work; Takao from Demi-fiend going through Yoyogi Park and fighting Sakahagi's demon to give her the Yahirono Himorogi. Isamu from the three pyramid demons that you fight causing Isamu to gain all the Magatsuhi by using Hijiri in the ritual.

      Chiaki and Yuko Takao both commit mass genocide; Chiaki on the town of Asakusa and their inner sanctum of Mifunashiro and Yuko Takao . . . on an entire universe - including everyone in the planet outside the abandoned hospital - to create the Vortex world.

      Takao and Demi-fiend were both manipulated. Hikawa manipulated Takao to commit mass genocide and then used her as a pillar to siphon Magatsuhi. Demi-fiend arguably by Lucifer by being lied to about the Menorahs being stolen so he'd fight the Fiends for the ritual, then being convinced he should kill all Creation to break free from Kagutsuchi's control only to be cursed for eternity. Lady in Black and Lucifer used half-truths to present this as breaking away from the possibility of that, but Demi-fiend chose to do it of his own freewill so he can't argue that it wasn't his decision regardless once it is done - this is probably the best written Lucifer in all of fiction as I absolutely loved what Atlus did here.

      What really convinced me of this was actually playing Isamu's route on PS2 for my 4th playthrough. Demi-fiend constantly played Hero saving his ass, then Isamu made a god, went and vied for creation, and unlike both Shijima and Yosuga, Isamu just died before you got there at the hands of Baal Avatar. Comparatively: Hikawa gives you a free demon and thanks you and Chiaki fights you with honor and thanks you profusely. Even the final scene shows a stark contrast: Chiaki thanks you and bids you farewell, Hikawa says you're a better person than him, and Isamu? Isamu wrote a tombstone saying he doesn't care what you do and is implied to have killed himself. Musubi is actually a well-done "bad" ending to the game, but so few realize that because they think the Reason Endings aren't worth it. Finishing Musubi is what made me realize Chiaki's argument - to quote the HD Script for more accuracy - “The weak provoke and mislead others because they can’t do anything themselves, as long as we have to deal with these parasites, we can never create a beautiful world.” - it wasn't intrinsically wrong, she was just too extreme. The quote sounds barbaric when you see Manikins killed, but apply it to Isamu and Takao and it fits perfectly.

      Delete
  21. Isn't that Jarin Jove guy the ignoramus that thinks the characters in SMT4 are based on the children from the Passover Hagada? And that there are 5 children? Where do you get those stuff? You can just assert random connections and then make things up, kid.

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    1. The links were right there in the blog post you mentioned. Jewish Rabbis literally talking about and referencing it as part of the Jewish tradition. I mean, wow, calling me making things up and not even clicking the links that verify it.

      Delete
  22. They hated Jarin because he told them the truth

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    Replies
    1. They hated Jarin because he is a raving lunatic

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    2. Maybe form concrete reasons and not personal attacks.

      Delete